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Comments on: Money, politics, and the ideologies I’ve gone through https://www.didyoulearnanything.net/blog/2011/07/26/money-politics-and-the-ideologies-ive-gone-through/ An archived blog about education, language, peace, and other fine things Mon, 26 Jun 2023 19:09:18 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.1.1 By: Guest post: Give freedom a chance (Mattan Mamane) | Did you learn anything? https://www.didyoulearnanything.net/blog/2011/07/26/money-politics-and-the-ideologies-ive-gone-through/#comment-495 Wed, 14 Sep 2011 16:06:37 +0000 http://www.didyoulearnanything.net/?p=1692#comment-495 […] part of my trying to figure out the whole economics thing, I’ll be asking some friends (of different ideological persuasions) to guest-post on the […]

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By: Michael https://www.didyoulearnanything.net/blog/2011/07/26/money-politics-and-the-ideologies-ive-gone-through/#comment-401 Fri, 26 Aug 2011 17:20:44 +0000 http://www.didyoulearnanything.net/?p=1692#comment-401 In reply to Jeremy Corbally-Hammond.

I guess I’m in a similar place to you right now. I think Israel could use better social services as well as more free trade (though either one would be a good start) and I agree that limits are needed (everywhere) on corporate exploitation.
One thing I think we should be careful of, though, is looking at poverty in absolute terms. The fact that most poor Americans have a better income and standard of living than most people of any class in the developing world does not at all make it okay that they are poor. There’s ultimately no justification for a system that allow extreme poverty to exist. Making sure every person in the state has access to education, housing, medicine and food would require a relatively small public investment (relative to, say, waging futile land wars in Asia) along with clever economic measures that don’t necessarily have to really restrict the free market – and it’s a good deal for everyone, because people of any class need not live in fear of losing access to these basics, and you also end up with a more able, empowered and free populace contributing to both economy and culture.
The tendency to put these things in black-and-white terms, casting any system that is more socialist than the US as identical with communism, sometimes obscures the fact that the goals of socialism are both desirable and attainable under a free system.

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By: Michael https://www.didyoulearnanything.net/blog/2011/07/26/money-politics-and-the-ideologies-ive-gone-through/#comment-400 Fri, 26 Aug 2011 11:19:59 +0000 http://www.didyoulearnanything.net/?p=1692#comment-400 In reply to Jason.

Thanks for your thoughts. I have Hebrew teaching and translation in mind as options, though I’m not sure these are my favorites. As for writing a book, I don’t believe that’s something I can make a lot of money from in the short term. It’s something I want to do some day, but I believe the profit will be in speaking gigs that come as a result of the book, not from selling the book itself.

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By: Michael https://www.didyoulearnanything.net/blog/2011/07/26/money-politics-and-the-ideologies-ive-gone-through/#comment-399 Fri, 26 Aug 2011 11:17:30 +0000 http://www.didyoulearnanything.net/?p=1692#comment-399 In reply to Jason.

But it’s not a choice between a completely free market or a completely planned market. There are many things in the middle, and in fact all states occupy that middle ground – government manipulates the markets even in the most capitalistic societies, and even in the most restrictive markets, there is also some free trade going on.
And the problem of other people deciding what to do with your money and making bad decisions is far from a non-issue in supposedly capitalistic America – see the subprime crisis.
Right now I tend to think that:
a. Israel and America are more corporatistic than capitalistic, regardless of what leaders claim to believe. Their economic systems are tilted towards allowing the very rich to become even richer at the expense of all others.
b. The ideal model is something akin to the mixed models of Germany and Scandinavia, in which you have both a strong welfare state and a strong free market.

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By: Jeremy Corbally-Hammond https://www.didyoulearnanything.net/blog/2011/07/26/money-politics-and-the-ideologies-ive-gone-through/#comment-310 Tue, 02 Aug 2011 14:40:07 +0000 http://www.didyoulearnanything.net/?p=1692#comment-310 Hi Michael,

I too have done quite a bit of soul searching in regards to economics. I was certainly attracted to the virtue behind the supportive nature of socialism but have more recently become aware of the benefits of libertarianism.

I want to address your point when you wrote:

“Moreover, any system that creates and maintains social classes full of people who are essentially condemned to be losers is not the kind of system I want to be in. And when we look at Israel, we see a place where there are remarkably many people who are extremely rich, but far more people who are incredibly poor”

I can’t speak of Israel, but I can of the United States, a traditionally capitalist nation. One can look at the growing disparity between the poor in the states and the ultra rich with disdain, but that’s not a whole picture. What is easily forgotten is that thanks to our capitalist-like system, the living standards of the poor – while arguably deplorable – are still leagues better than they have been in the past. Those we consider poor in the US are still within the top 10% of the world’s highest earners. There’s a reason why migrants from South/Central America flock to the United States – even though they live out of the dingiest motels spending 80 hours a week raking blueberries in Maine, and migrating south in the winter to pick oranges – it’s leagues better than the lack of opportunity or subsistence farming in their home country.

Despite that – I think it’s safe to say the United States does not play the libertarian-capitalist-free trade game. Neither does Israel. Capitalists in the US love to point to our own nation as a grand case study in support of libertarian economics, but forget that we employ tariffs and subsidies for key industries, especially agriculture while promoting free trade to developing countries. We also have a social safety net that some may argue is not enough, but compared to developing nations is quite generous. We have minimum wage laws. We’ve (historically) empowered unions. Our nation has also spent a lot of public dollars on infrastructure including building a complex national highway system and more recently subsidizing phone and internet connectivity.

It is because of our success that I support a balanced approach – though slightly tweaked to avoid exploitative corporatism. I cannot easily label my stance. Some might call it centrist – but I think “moderates” and even some libertarians have usurped that label in the US. I can’t hang out with US-liberals because I’m too pro-business. I can’t hang out with libertarians because I’m in favor of some (marginal) progressive taxation and public education/infrastructure spending. I’m certainly not accepted in US-Conservative circles because I am of course in favor of more civil liberties.

Ultimately, I’ve decided to forego a label all together due to the polarization and hostile nature of politics these days. I’d rather people not make assumptions about where I stand on issues.

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By: Jason https://www.didyoulearnanything.net/blog/2011/07/26/money-politics-and-the-ideologies-ive-gone-through/#comment-305 Sun, 31 Jul 2011 10:24:37 +0000 http://www.didyoulearnanything.net/?p=1692#comment-305 Oh, and about your money blog which I just read: Why do you restrict that as your option. There may be many other opportunities regarding translating. What about a translator for a court, for the government. What about starting your own translating company where you book people who need translating with translators. What about a business teaching a language or languages to people. Germans who would be interested in learning hebrew for a cheaper price than a university; I hear there are evangelical christians in Germany, maybe advertise this with fliers in their churches, they might be very interested…just thinking off the top of my head. If I’m not mistaken, there are no distinctions between foreigners and germans when starting a business in germany, and I don’t think there is any red tape regarding repatriation of profits. What about writing and publishing an e-book about democratic schools and selling copies of that at your democratic school meetings… think creatively; with the head on your shoulders you can do better than survive you can thrive God-willing.

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By: Jason https://www.didyoulearnanything.net/blog/2011/07/26/money-politics-and-the-ideologies-ive-gone-through/#comment-304 Sun, 31 Jul 2011 10:10:40 +0000 http://www.didyoulearnanything.net/?p=1692#comment-304 You make a good point when you state that all the theories make assumptions about how people will act. Therefore, lets take a look at the reality of how people actually act in each of these systems, by looking at various societies that have tried these various systems. You talk about the problems with free market being that some have more influence and that it isn’t a level playing field. True; however, do you think it’s any different in a communist system? Only in theory. In reality, In the former Soviet Union or in Mao’s China, did people have a level playing field or was there a privileged group who were wealthy and well connected? In fact, in any system you create this will be the case because this is human nature. The same people who are ruling in a free market society would be ruling in a communist society. So what’s the difference? Here’s the difference. Did you ever notice that the Soviets went broke; that their people went starving while standing on block long bread lines. How many tens of millions starved to death in Mao’s China ( and how the creative energies of their people has been unleashed since they moved more towards capitalism). In all societies there is never true equality, however, in societies which are oriented more towards the free market end of the spectrum, you have a small percentage of well connected wealthy individuals with more clout than others and you have the rest of the people living relatively stable economic lives with the ability to enjoy the fruits of their labor. Whereas, in a society that tends toward the communist end of the spectrum, what you end up with in reality is a few well connected individuals just like the other economy; except here the rest of the population is starving and without any power at all. The reason for this is that it is in peoples nature to strive for themselves and their family. Though we may want to help others, we will not work and sweat day after day for strangers we’ve never met (and definitely not nearly as hard) as we would work to provide for our children or spouse or parents or even extended family. Therefore, communism removes the incentive to work, while the free market builds on that incentive. Who would start a business where they take a risk that it could fail and they put in effort to build it from scratch, if their results will be redistributed? Almost no one. Then what happens to the economy if no one is unleashing their creativity? It fails; everyone suffers, cycle…. Whereas with the free market system( and I’m not arguing for a pure free market system, just a system that is alot closer to free market than the other side) you work with human nature and build on the motivation and drive that people have to succeed or be the best or take a chance or just provide for their family or themselves. This allows people to take risks, start business ventures, try to educate themeselves so they can get better jobs, unleash their creative potential- since they know that they will be able to keep (at least most of) the fruits of their labor. I can talk about this without end, so i’ll just give one more example of a key difference between these two ends of the spectrum. Let’s ask the question: When is money better spent and used more productively? And when is money and resources more likely to be wasted and given to well connected instead of those who deserve it. Well, to find the answer, let’s ask this question: Who would be more prudent with your money, You or someone else? Obviously you. The problem with communism (or anything toward the spectrum which takes the decisions further away from the individuals) is that instead of the individual deciding how to best spend his/her money, you end up with bureaucrats making the decisions. In essence strangers far away deciding how someone elses money should be spent. Since it’s not their money, they will not be as careful with it as you would. They will waste it, steal from it – or give contracts to their friends and those well connected.. So the more you can keep the persons money with them the better. Now obviously there are exceptions but as a general rule towards the spectrum of the individual and his freedom is superior than the collective – especially since the collective doesn’t exist in that sense ( we are not a colony of bees) and the “collective” just ends up being the privileged individuals and the impoverished – far more than the free market system produces, for many reasons including those stated above.

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By: Michael https://www.didyoulearnanything.net/blog/2011/07/26/money-politics-and-the-ideologies-ive-gone-through/#comment-298 Wed, 27 Jul 2011 10:22:30 +0000 http://www.didyoulearnanything.net/?p=1692#comment-298 In reply to Doron.

I totally see the logic in what you’re saying, and on the first part (corporatism) I actually agree entirely.

But about the level playing field, I disagree. This isn’t about every individual having the same starting conditions and the same chances. It’s about not creating classes of people who have little to no chance of living a fulfilling life. I agree that the blame lies with big government, but it doesn’t only lie there. Poverty has been around for a very long time, and I believe it is in everyone’s interest to end it.
In addition, I see one of the only core roles of government in protecting its citizens – this includes protecting them from one another, even from abuse and exploitation. Poverty and low wages go hand in hand, and essentially an economy that has poverty exploits a class of people who are desperate enough to take any paying job, even if the pay is less than what they need. This should not be allowed. I know, enforcing a minimum wage drives inflation and makes things more expensive for companies. But I don’t think an economy that is based on exploiting people while giving them the short end of the stick is an economy worthy of existing. If we in the middle-upper classes pay a little more so that the lower classes can live in dignity and experience freedom and independence, then so be it. In the end we stand to gain from it.
And this is what I was getting at with libertarianism/capitalism’s idealized concept of the citizenry. Ideally, the minimum wage is whatever lowest wage a citizen would agree to take. But this assumes that all citizens are able to stand up for their rights and refuse an unfair wage. The reality is that many people, especially those who grow up in poverty, never attain that feeling of empowerment, and there are masses of people who will take an insulting pay if you don’t, putting quite a lot of pressure on the individual to give in and take the insulting pay because it’s “better than nothing”. It’s not better than nothing in the long run, it’s much worse than nothing because it occupies you with something that doesn’t give you what you need, keeping you from finding what you need, but in the short run, you have a strong incentive to take it.
And I could write a whole extra post about how the education system seems connected to this, but I won’t right now. Maybe later. The bottom line is, we don’t yet have the empowered citizenry needed for a free market to produce fair wages.

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By: Doron https://www.didyoulearnanything.net/blog/2011/07/26/money-politics-and-the-ideologies-ive-gone-through/#comment-297 Wed, 27 Jul 2011 07:00:34 +0000 http://www.didyoulearnanything.net/?p=1692#comment-297 Hi Michael,

Free market does not always sway towards corporatism (which is what you described). It does so only if the government is big and powerful enough to be able to use it’s influence for it’s own interests, such as helping big corporations.

For instance: saving failing businesses, subsidizing them, giving them tax-cuts are all very harmful acts and are not related to free market at all. Those businesses are protected from the fear of failure, the key ingredient of free-market.

A small, limited government simply could not subsidies any business (it wouldn’t be within it’s abilities) and it’s tax laying abilities would be limited anyway. Therefor such distortions would be dimmed illegal.

Other then that there’s the whole even playing field.
We all are born different, with different skills. We are unequal and unique, we can never have an equal playing field.

Regarding the second point, the equal playing-firled.
Why shouldn’t a man who worked for his money be able to use that money to give his son a head-start? (which is what you implying, you cannot give everyone a head start, the number of really good schools is limited)

The only thing that should be guaranteed is that we are all playing by the same rules (which means not hindered by the government) not that we are starting from the same place.

You are correct that the current system is somewhat corrupted but it is not because of free-market running loose but because of the opposite: big governments doing what they want. And it does not matter for what purpose the government uses that power the fact that is has that power means it will eventually get used for it’s own advantage.

Doron

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